Curse

alexander92 · May 24, 2010, 01:41 PM // 13:41

We all know scythes are the hardest hitting weapon in game but in Hm they hit for a lot less than they do in Nm due to monsters higher armor.Also scythe atacks tend not to add a lot of armor ignoring numbers .Daggers on the other are the lowest hitting weapon but they atack very fast,in addition dagger atacks have a lot of +dmg which is armor ignoring and on a double strike that +dmg is realy devastating.Add SoH to that and with the speed of daggers u get to do great dps.But most of the time in normal areas targets seem to go down so fast you can't even finish your combo.SO ,what weapon do you prefer,which one do you find better for the kill shit fast role (in pve of course)?

Spiritz · May 24, 2010, 02:37 PM // 14:37

Both have pro`s and cons.
Daggers can do as op said chance of double strike.
Daggers have faster attack speed but only hit 1 foe
scythes have slower attack speed but scythe sins use critical agility to compensate.
scythes hit upto 3 foes when close together - great for zeleous scythe sin users.
Reason i like scythe over daggers on a sin is a great point said about dagger builds - they can die before end of a chain but also if foe blocks etc then chains killed and you go for a short spell from killing machine to idiot with daggers.Scythe sins done have attack chains so a foe blocks we can still do a skill/combo.

If sins didnt have dagger chains id hate to think how much a killing machine they would be and the amount of complaints sins are OP etc lol.

Masmar · May 24, 2010, 02:38 PM // 14:38

Daggers are less boring

Eragon Zarroc · May 24, 2010, 02:53 PM // 14:53

daggers are much more fun ;-)

Quaker · May 24, 2010, 03:21 PM // 15:21

Mostly, it's just the latest "leet" thing. A little while ago it was spears - everyone had to carry a spear to be leet. Now it's Sins and Scythes.

Me, I`m more of a traditionalist. If I want to use a scythe, I'll play my Dervish.

P.s - I play regularly with a Guildie who uses a Scythe on his Assassin. When we are playing Sin together, I don`t notice any particular advantage he has, except that with his build, he can survive better and with mine, I actually kill stuff.

alexander92 · May 24, 2010, 03:27 PM // 15:27

well my question was which is the most effective of the two.Btw i'm still trying to decide between sin and derv,and for the record i won't wield a scythe on my sin,just like Quaker said ,if i want to use a scythe i'll play dervish.

Faye Aeris · May 24, 2010, 03:35 PM // 15:35

The thing about scythes is, Warriors and Assassins are better at it than Dervishes.

In hard mode: An assassin wielding a scythe does around 110 DPS. A warrior wielding a scythe does around 115 DPS. A dervish wielding a scythe does around 90 DPS.

In normal mode: An assassin wielding a scythe does around 140 DPS. A warrior wielding a scythe does around 130 DPS. A dervish wielding a scythe does around 110 DPS.

For daggers: An assassin is the best. 120 DPS in normal mode, 110 DPS in hard mode.

As you can see, the difference between normal mode and hard mode is pretty large for scythe, but pretty small for daggers. However, the damage overall is pretty much the same. Then what do you use to compare effectiveness?

The answer is physical buffs. Assassins pump out way more attacks per second than scythes, because of super fast activation times, dual attacks, and a naturally higher attack rate. That means that things like Strength of Honor, Ebon Battle Standard, and Great Dwarf Weapon trigger much more. Therefore daggers are more effective when using physical buffs. However, this fast attack rate comes at a price. When wielding daggers, your chain is key. If a part of your chain misses and is blocked, you have to start over, meaning a significantly lower DPS. The fast attack spammer partially circumvents blocking by using the unblockable Fox Fangs, but blind is a big problem that can exhaust your energy if you're not careful. Bringing cleans and anti-blocking can help a dagger sin maintain his DPS.

In summary, a dagger sin is better when he has people behind him to support him with buffs and cleans. A scythe sin is better when you're in unorganized groups and just want to make things go boom. Dervishes are bad atm, don't play them until they get buffed.

Zarion Silverarrow · May 24, 2010, 03:35 PM // 15:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by alexander92

well my question was which is the most effective of the two.Btw i'm still trying to decide between sin and derv,and for the record i won't wield a scythe on my sin,just like Quaker said ,if i want to use a scythe i'll play dervish.

So technically your asking Assasin vs Dervish

If so...for now I would choose Assasin....MUCH MUCH better.

BUT,I suspect and this is in no way official to my knowlage,Dervishes will get a buff just like Mesmies did in about 2 months or something....

But if you want to play NOW...make an Assasin,much more effective and much funner (for now,atleast)

alexander92 · May 24, 2010, 07:28 PM // 19:28

can dervishes get better than the assasin and warrior counterparts after update

?I for one wish they get op for once,they deserv it.Btw i like the "idea" of a dervish better than the assasin but right now assasins are just better,i may wait for the update preview before i decide though!

Watermelon Tacos · May 24, 2010, 11:11 PM // 23:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by alexander92

can dervishes get better than the assasin and warrior counterparts after update

?I for one wish they get op for once,they deserv it.Btw i like the "idea" of a dervish better than the assasin but right now assasins are just better,i may wait for the update preview before i decide though!

dervishes can get better if they either nerf sins and warriors or buff the dervish to godly opness. hopefully its the buff but you can always play both since you have more than 1 character slot

Bobby2 · May 24, 2010, 11:47 PM // 23:47

Death Blossom

ha ha ha ha

Zarion Silverarrow · May 25, 2010, 12:46 PM // 12:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Watermelon Tacos

dervishes can get better if they either nerf sins and warriors or buff the dervish to godly opness. hopefully its the buff but you can always play both since you have more than 1 character slot

If I was part of the test krewe

I would nerf Assasins and Warriors (note:this would not be done to the extreme,just small small small VERY small changes)

And buff Dervishes,to the point were they are almost the same,a bit better than Warrior and a bit worse than Assasin,or a bit better than Assasin and a bit worse than Warrior,etc

Watermelon Tacos · May 25, 2010, 08:53 PM // 20:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zarion Silverarrow

If I was part of the test krewe

I would nerf Assasins and Warriors (note:this would not be done to the extreme,just small small small VERY small changes)

And buff Dervishes,to the point were they are almost the same,a bit better than Warrior and a bit worse than Assasin,or a bit better than Assasin and a bit worse than Warrior,etc

Well I'm not saying that nerfing isn't viable because sins and warriors do feel more op than dervishes but playing a dervish and finally getting it easy will be nice for a change

a-kyle · May 25, 2010, 10:13 PM // 22:13

So are we saying W/D or A/D is the best build right now for scythe weilders?

tuna-fish_sushi · May 25, 2010, 10:39 PM // 22:39

Normal Mode: Scythe
Scythe his for huge numbers when it crits on the low-medium armored foes. DPS is king in PVE.

Hard Mode: Daggers
Armor ignorning attacks are crucial in HM, with the much higher attack speed of daggers combined with SoH, MoP, Splinter Weapon, Deathblossom. Also opens up the option for Save Yourselves which can be quickly charged with daggers. Not only will this keep your party safe but the aggro'd enemies will focus on you because you have the lowest armor. This means easier crowd control and therefore bigger DPS from MoP, and Deathblossom, and other AoE damage skills your other party members have. Also allows for easier job on the monks as they only need to prot one character.

FoxBat · May 25, 2010, 10:39 PM // 22:39

W/D is the best, gets the SY, energy, perma IAS, even crits if you want them.

The only thing A/D has going for it is a deep wound elite.

saint666 · May 26, 2010, 02:29 AM // 02:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

W/D is the best, gets the SY, energy, perma IAS, even crits if you want them.

The only thing A/D has going for it is a deep wound elite.

You can say they only thing W/D got going for them is SY. Either you make things die faster or make your party live longer, that's if you're not playing with an imbagon, er prot or spirit prot.

FoxBat · May 26, 2010, 06:16 AM // 06:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by saint666

You can say they only thing W/D got going for them is SY. Either you make things die faster or make your party live longer, that's if you're not playing with an imbagon, er prot or spirit prot.

Fear Me gives W/D near sin criticals and they have armor pen on attack skills on top of that, without being reliant on enchants.

Bobby2 · May 26, 2010, 05:01 PM // 17:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

Fear Me gives W/D near sin criticals and they have armor pen on attack skills on top of that, without being reliant on enchants.

Whoa, whoa. Weren't we taking WE Scythe? What's the attribute split on this thing? Also 'near-sin criticals' is a bit of an overstatement

Also, SoH is pretty much mandatory for any physical build. Wars may not be as susceptible to ench hate as sins but it sure hurts them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tuna-fish_sushi

stuff

Pretty accurate.

saint666 · May 26, 2010, 05:02 PM // 17:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

Fear Me gives W/D near sin criticals and they have armor pen on attack skills on top of that, without being reliant on enchants.

you can get armor penetration from your weapon, and 14% penetration isn't that much of a a big deal, when you get DW in return. Dmg wise crit scythe is still better than enduring scythe, but enduring scythe is more reliable for sure. Anyways this tread is about daggers vs scythe. For me daggers > scythes in HM, armour ignoring dmg>weapon dmg.